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clrmoney
clrmoney
3/20/2018 10:21:15 AM
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5G on Cars
I think that some cars make it easier for us when we are driving because some companies have already advanced technology and them wanting to have 5G will just add more in a positive way but I can't help but wonder the downside from all of this.

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Ariella
Ariella
3/20/2018 1:21:25 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
I think the fatal accident will slow some of the progress people anticipated for autonomous cars on the road.  It certainly put an end to Uber's tests. See https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/19/17139518/uber-self-driving-car-fatal-crash-tempe-arizona

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ms.akkineni
ms.akkineni
3/20/2018 6:22:42 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@Ariella:

Completely agree. It was so unfortunate incident for Uber's autonomus cars. Any further efforts from Uber are suspended. This certainly will slow down the pace.

I was also thinking based on the news i heard about the incident, how there was no control by the driver when crisis was identified as there was a driver in the car though it was operating on auto mode.

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Ariella
Ariella
3/20/2018 8:37:32 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@ms.akinneni you mean that the human driver does not have an ability to override? I thought that was the main idea in having human drivers on the cars being tested.

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ms.akkineni
ms.akkineni
3/20/2018 11:29:54 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@Ariella:

No, What i was wondering was if the driver had any chance to take over and prevent the incident that occured.

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JohnBarnes
JohnBarnes
3/21/2018 2:43:06 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
Ariella, Ms. Akkineni, 

It's a classic kind of thing in human factors studies: once the human operator normally doesn't have enough to do, the monitoring-and-stepping-in side of the job slides. Part of why bridge crews on ships and cockpit crews on long distance flights have a large number of routine checks they're supposed to do at particular times: it keeps them paying at least some attention to their surroundings.

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ms.akkineni
ms.akkineni
3/21/2018 3:11:54 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
@John:

Yes, that is quiet natural factor. I agree that introducing mandatory monitoring into the routine just like ship/flight cruise has should help great deal in this context as well. I would hope that is something that the autonomous car companies would incrporate. 

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Ariella
Ariella
3/21/2018 3:13:41 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@JohnBarnes that makes sense. If you feel there is no value to checking, you will likey just space out. I can see that happening on longer drives, though likely not as much on a short one -- unless the person really falls asleep at the wheel.

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ms.akkineni
ms.akkineni
3/21/2018 3:18:59 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
There has to be some trigger. For example we have cruise control setting in cars, but the moment a break is hit that setting is lost and will be back to normal mode. Something similar to switch the gear from auto drive to manned mode should help. In this case any sensor like object, person or something like that may be designed to stop the car or something of that sort may help. I am not an expert in designing the car, just my two cents. :)

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Ariella
Ariella
3/21/2018 3:20:46 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@ms.akinneini I agree with you. You definitely need some way to override the automatic setting quickly. 

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mpouraryan
mpouraryan
3/22/2018 3:23:07 AM
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Re: 5G on Cars
The Uber Car in Arizona had a "physical driver"--why the driver did not override the system is one of the questions I'd like to know--although 5G is great--and the evolution is in line with progress, the question is whether it has truly hit primetime.

 

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Joe Stanganelli
Joe Stanganelli
3/23/2018 3:01:47 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@mpouraryan: FWIW, I saw a headline about how video allegedly showed the human operator in the self-driving car looked down seconds before the collision. Distracted driving. Or, in this case, distracted not-driving. ;)

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elizabethv
elizabethv
3/23/2018 4:27:20 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@Joe - I would almost say without a doubt then this (if it's true) confirms my theory. The driver was looking at their phone. I suppose they could have technically been looking at just about anything. But my thoughts always go to phones anymore. I think it's a comedian acting as a teacher and they say something like, "Nobody smiles at their pants like that." So true. So true. Lol. 

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Joe Stanganelli
Joe Stanganelli
3/31/2018 10:15:04 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
> "Nobody smiles at their pants like that."

Well, if they weren't looking at their phone, the alternatives would seem embarrassing indeed!

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mpouraryan
mpouraryan
3/23/2018 10:08:36 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
..and I understand (I have not personally verified it due to commitments for the Daily Outsider & other projects) that apparently the victim was "supposedly" jay walking....the point is that the intelligence needs to be enhanced considerably--I can't help but wonder how the Self-Driving Truck Experiments are going.

Truly Challenging times indeed!!

 

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vnewman
vnewman
3/25/2018 10:14:35 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
I saw the video and it is true she was jaywalking and it was extremely dark. You don’t see her until the very last second. In theory, there must be a way to account for this from a technology standpoint but it’s just not there yet. Since the victim was homeless - she likely was not aware or concerned about “driverless” cars. It seems, as pedestrians, we are going to have to be extra-vigilant about our own safety. I’m sure the Uber driver had a false sense of security that the car would take care of everything. Yikes.

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srufolo1
srufolo1
3/25/2018 10:48:18 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@vnewman I'm surprised that the technology didn't detect a person walking in front of the car. If it's going to be self-driving, it damn well be a better driver than a human, I would think. Driverless cars clearly are not ready for prime time.

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vnewman
vnewman
3/25/2018 11:12:47 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
You would think so, right? I would guess there will soon be a state-issued “driverless” car license requirement coming soon to a DMV near you.

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srufolo1
srufolo1
3/27/2018 9:06:21 AM
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Re: 5G on Cars
vnewman Funny, I was thinking the same thing. If the robot wants the privilege to drive on our roads, then they must have a license. 

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Joe Stanganelli
Joe Stanganelli
3/27/2018 4:27:31 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@srufolo: Yeah, but they effectively have that already, in the form of autonomous-vehicle companies negotiating agreements with states, as Uber, Google, and several others have done.

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ms.akkineni
ms.akkineni
3/27/2018 11:30:18 AM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@srufolo1, @vnewman:

Absolutely, i shared similar thoughts in one of my comments. There must be something from technology standpoint, which clearly not existed and that is the major concern for what happened. I was surprised how could that be missing in design at this age many things run by sensors. Would it be too difficult for a car to sense something or someone and come to a stop or beep / alert insde so the driver can take over just to apply brake. Atleast any one of those options could reduce the intense of situation.

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srufolo1
srufolo1
3/28/2018 6:30:35 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@ms. akkineni  This "self-driving" car was reportedly even going 5 miles over the speed limit, so it apparently wasn't even obeying traffic laws. The person that was behind the wheel just in case could have at least corrected that! These cars are better on highways right now, not in populated areas. 

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ms.akkineni
ms.akkineni
3/28/2018 8:57:00 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
@srufolo1:

That is right. I even wonder why the test was run in populated areas. I understand eventually it got to be tested in populated areas, but i think not yet.

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srufolo1
srufolo1
3/30/2018 11:24:58 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@ms. akkineni The weird thing is that who even knew that Uber was testing out self-driving cars? And for what reason? Was there something in it for them? The first I heard of it was when that accident happened. I wonder if Uber was doing it anywhere else. Also, did the passenger realize they were in a self-driving car, and did they willingly still take the ride?

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Michelle
Michelle
3/31/2018 9:45:20 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
Was there a passenger in the car at the time? I haven't been following the story closely. I would expect an emergency take over option for passengers in a self-driving car.

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Joe Stanganelli
Joe Stanganelli
4/2/2018 1:08:51 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@Michelle: I was under the impression that there was no passenger. (Perhaps I am wrong?) Otherwise, it would have been widely reported, I tend to think.

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srufolo1
srufolo1
4/3/2018 9:18:05 AM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@Joe Stanganelli and Michelle  I assumed there was a passenger in the car, otherwise why would the driver be in the car in the first place? But maybe not. No mention was made of a passenger. I'd like to see how this whole thing shakes out as far as lawsuits against Uber. I feel the company made a terrible mistake with this test pilot.

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Joe Stanganelli
Joe Stanganelli
4/4/2018 7:44:05 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@srufolo: Uber drivers, like traditional cabbies, gotta be between fares some of the time. In particular, some even strategize and collaborate on when to go offline and when to go online to time their working time well with demand.

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elizabethv
elizabethv
4/3/2018 3:26:33 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@Joe and Srufolo1 - Yeah I don't think there was a passenger. I think it was just a test. In the long run, Uber having self-driving cars would realistically mean they wouldn't have to pay a human to drive the car. (Or would they because you would still want a human backup? Not sure on this one.) I had no idea that they were testing drive-less cars, but do know there are several companies testing driver-less cars in Arizona. A friend of mine has seen them. I am originally from Arizona and know more than a few people that live there. Drivers are AWFUL in the Phoenix area, so it's either a REALLY good place to test, or a horrible one. 

 

On another note, did anyone see Tesla's driverless automation is being blamed for a fatality in California now as well? Not a good week for the whole idea of "driverless cars." 

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srufolo1
srufolo1
4/9/2018 10:38:04 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@elizabethv  Maybe such cars should not be tested in places with so many pedestrians at first until some of the kinks are worked out. It will take me a long time to even think of using a driverless car. 

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ms.akkineni
ms.akkineni
4/16/2018 10:17:28 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
@elizabethv:

I don't blame you. But my guess is it must have passed some kind of initial testing before it got on road. Just a guess, not sure.

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Michelle
Michelle
3/29/2018 1:33:41 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
This raises even more questions about the true safety of self-driving cars. If they are so good at following traffic laws, why did this one ignore? I really thought more time was needed before self-driving cars were left on the road without in-car human supervision. 

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elizabethv
elizabethv
3/29/2018 4:55:44 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@srufolo1 - EXACTLY! I would completely expect for a driverless car to be a better drive then a human. We're continually told we aren't as smart as computers, and if that's the case, than computers should certainly have a greater ability to drive than we do. And if they don't - then they need to get off the roads. 

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mpouraryan
mpouraryan
3/25/2018 10:55:45 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
When I was taught to drive, I was reminded that I had to be aware of all my surroundings--so the onus is on me--and Uber, Lyft, Ford, Telsa and all the other players have to make sure that they indeed "build" it into their alogrithims.    It is not a Question of if, but when--as Mania has truly arrived!!

 

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srufolo1
srufolo1
3/27/2018 9:09:29 AM
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Re: 5G on Cars
mpourayan  Yes, indeed, "mania" has arrived. It appears these automobile companies just want to be the first to roll the technology out without it being fully tested. Our lives are at risk because people are already driving these cars, but I refuse to have anything to do with them right now. You remind me of something my father said about driving: "You have to have eyes all around your head." I don't even feel secure when someone else is driving me, let alone a robot.

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mpouraryan
mpouraryan
3/27/2018 11:47:57 AM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
We can't fight progress--that's an implicit message about Transformation.     We have to think about not just "Mania", but truly the Day after tomorrow--there lies the challenge.

Onward to April with all its' possiblities!!!



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Joe Stanganelli
Joe Stanganelli
3/27/2018 4:25:53 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@mpouraryan: That implies that all transformation is progress.

Or, put another way, paraphrasing a tweet I once read: We're all progressives. It's just a matter of what we consider progress.

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mpouraryan
mpouraryan
3/27/2018 5:38:32 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
I always try to remain hopeful--I see no other choice--because we have to embrace change (not for the sake of it) but to make sure we end up make things better.   Easier said than done--but we have to for the sake of the all. 

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ms.akkineni
ms.akkineni
3/28/2018 8:59:19 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
@mpouraryan:

Completely agree with you. We all know that CHANGE is the only constant in life. So we got to embrace and adapt. I heard in news today while driving - a baby born today may never drive in his/her life time, which made me think about this whole concept and its future advancement.

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mpouraryan
mpouraryan
3/29/2018 1:27:29 AM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
The challenge is to make sure that we're ready and not be overwhelmed--as the Facebook debacle has shown,  we have to truly anticipate this coming wave...

Onward to April & Q2 with all its possiblities!!  

"See" you all next month!!!



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ms.akkineni
ms.akkineni
3/29/2018 7:07:56 AM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
Can't agree more with you. As consumers that is the best we can do - be prepared !!!

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dlr5288
dlr5288
3/29/2018 11:01:38 AM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
That’s so interesting! And it’s definitely a possibility. It’ll be cool to see how cars in the future develope.

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ms.akkineni
ms.akkineni
4/9/2018 1:17:08 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
@dlr5288: Hoping to hear and see lot more. It is true that there is a hiccup with uber incident. But efforts will go on to make the model better and better. I heard over the weekend in the news that uber is targeting to go public in an year. So there will be much more coming along the way.

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vnewman
vnewman
3/27/2018 10:26:46 AM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
@mpouraryan Also, it appears that Uber recently decided to change its policy of having two engineers in the front seat of the self-driving cars at all times. It also appears they didn’t inform anyone of this decision.

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mpouraryan
mpouraryan
3/27/2018 11:49:44 AM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
Uber, it seems, at times takes one step forward and two steps back.   This is some true food for thought for all to think about as we continue to deliberate its' progress:

https://www.curbed.com/transportation/2018/3/23/17153200/delete-uber-cities?silverid=NDMxMzM3MzgyNjMzS0

Onward to April w/all its possiblities!!

 

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srufolo1
srufolo1
3/24/2018 11:10:48 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
@Joe Stanganelli It's bad enough that I still see people in regular cars texting while driving, and they are totally distracted. I almost had a car plow into me the other day because I think the person was texting. The person in that Uber car probably felt complete confidence in that car, so much so, that they probably just thought no intervention would be needed.

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ms.akkineni
ms.akkineni
3/27/2018 11:25:19 AM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
Oh, yes. There is still lot of tecting going on whie driving. I also see many adults (i mean not just teenagers or young adults) do that. For me texting is a distraction not just while driving, our brain gets side tracked even if we try checking texts at a traffic light stop. Once the light is back you are kind of puzzled for a quick few seconds as you are preoccupied. That itself is dangerous enough at times. So it is just a personal responsibility of every individual to be disciplined in that sense for not just the sake of self but also for others around.

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ms.akkineni
ms.akkineni
4/16/2018 10:15:48 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
Absolutely. It should be as simple as being able to get off the cruise control as needed. No other rocket science per say.

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mpouraryan
mpouraryan
3/22/2018 3:21:45 AM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
The UBER tragedy in Arizona has set things back--what is critical to note that the progress cannot be stopped--but there is still a lot of work that still needs to be done--and there is a "Webcam" as the tragedy unfolded.....

 

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batye
batye
3/22/2018 3:12:23 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
@ms.akkineni  yes you are right with technology changes the new add on option will become available...

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Joe Stanganelli
Joe Stanganelli
3/21/2018 9:34:24 AM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@Ariella: My first thought exactly. Of course, what will really happen is there will be a period of "investigation", and it will be determined that the dead pedestrian was really the one at fault, and then it will go back to full speed ahead.

Not entirely unlike one of my predictions for a sister site: (link)

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Ariella
Ariella
3/21/2018 11:17:28 AM
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Re: 5G on Cars
MIT Technology Review ran a very interesting piece on the subject https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610459/when-an-ai-finally-kills-someone-who-will-be-responsible/?imm_mid=0fc116&cmp=em-data-na-na-newsltr_ai_20180319

"At the heart of this debate is whether an AI system could be held criminally liable for its actions. "

It then goes into the different aspects of intent and liability.

"Speeding is a strict liability offense," he says. "So according to Hallevy, if a self-driving car was found to be breaking the speed limit for the road it is on, the law may well assign criminal liability to the AI program that was driving the car at that time." In that case, the owner may not be liable.

Then there is the issue of defense. If an AI system can be criminally liable, what defense might it use? Kingston raises a number of possibilities: Could a program that is malfunctioning claim a defense similar to the human defense of insanity? Could an AI infected by an electronic virus claim defenses similar to coercion or intoxication?

These kinds of defenses are by no means theoretical. Kingston highlights a number of cases in the UK where people charged with computer-related offenses have successfully argued that their machines had been infected with malware that was instead responsible for the crime.

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Joe Stanganelli
Joe Stanganelli
3/23/2018 2:58:28 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@Ariella: Unfortunately, it's this kind of thinking -- of avoiding the most minor of speeding/traffic offenses under a strict interpretation of the law -- that leads to the accidents we see with autonomous vehicles. They appear to be programmed to err on the side of obeying the strictest interpretation of the law rather than to err on the side of safety. Sometimes, to avoid an accident, it is necessary to speed up above the speed limit, let the pedestrian waiting at the crosswalk continue to wait, or go over the double-yellow lines, and so on.

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JohnBarnes
JohnBarnes
3/21/2018 2:50:54 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
Joe, 

That's a great piece, and I think you're right.  In particular, for at least the relevant next few business cycles, publicized doubts about the safety of AI in controlling transportation can be used to jack premiums at the same time that "self-driving machines don't kill people" can be argued to hold down payouts.  It's really an insurance company's dream for the next few years, I'm afraid.

"People must be very careful to behave regularly and predictably so that machines do not become angry and kill them" -- Gregory Bateson.

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Joe Stanganelli
Joe Stanganelli
3/27/2018 4:24:54 PM
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Re: 5G on Cars
@John: And more to your point, insurance companies are like the machines referenced in your quote; they prefer certainty. Having a human driver to always default blame to as opposed to a robot driver could well become as standard as placing presumptive blame on the rear vehicle in a rear-ending.

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JohnBarnes
JohnBarnes
3/21/2018 2:37:57 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
Ariella,

I doubt it will be more than a hiccup; the purpose of Uber, Lyft, etc. is to destroy/degrade jobs in the personal transportation industry, and there's nobody really opposing that -- traditional taxi companies and driver unions already lost the fight when they weren't able to prevent internet-jitney scams from entering the markets.  So there's really nobody to raise the alarm and keep it raised; most major media don't even have labor-affairs reporters anymore.  As soon as the story dies down, Uber (or any of its supposed competitors) will be back at it till the next time they kill someone, and they'll just repeat the cycle until the novelty wears off.  

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ms.akkineni
ms.akkineni
3/21/2018 3:13:59 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
Absolutely, it just will be matter of time. With time things will be faded off and these companies will work on resolving any obligatory issues that need the resolve and soon will get back in flight with the jorney.

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elizabethv
elizabethv
3/21/2018 3:37:22 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G on Cars
@Ariella - it definitely completely killed any thoughts I ever had about being in an autonomous car. And there weren't many before the incident. Supposedly the woman wasn't in a crosswalk, but that doesn't really make me feel any better about the situation. Especially since there was a person behind the wheel. I'm really curious about all of the circumstances, was the driver able to stop it? Were they paying attention? I think it's just human nature to start to become overly comfortable with your circumstances and then let your guard down. Especially if someone has a phone on them. So was the driver distracted by their phone? Overly comfortable that the car would perform exactly as it was supposed to? 

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norikachi006
norikachi006
3/20/2018 9:26:33 PM
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Steel
Re: 5G on Cars
it sure was will appear in the future near

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Shaunn
Shaunn
3/20/2018 8:43:58 PM
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Platinum
5G is still in the future
Flying cars should have been done a long time ago. Autonomous cars seem alot closer, but 5G alone has proven to be very difficult on its own. I think both, though seemingly close, are still a long way into the future based on all the trouble of execution for each.

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ms.akkineni
ms.akkineni
3/20/2018 11:33:35 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G is still in the future
Shaunn:

There is no doubt that we will see both in future, it will take time for sure. There needs to be good testing done in both models. 

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srufolo1
srufolo1
3/24/2018 11:07:22 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G is still in the future
@ms.akkineni I prefer not to go anywhere near a self-driving car until all the kinks have been worked out. The Uber accident that killed a woman in Arizona is such a tragedy. Until they get it right, I fear that more of these kinds of accidents are going to occur.

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ms.akkineni
ms.akkineni
3/27/2018 11:19:11 AM
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Platinum
Re: 5G is still in the future
@Srufolo:

I hear you and join you with same feelings. Also i believe we are not alone, am sure there are many more with same reservations while that technology gets more mature and stable enough for people to be confident enough to try.

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srufolo1
srufolo1
3/28/2018 6:27:30 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G is still in the future
@ms. akkineni Saw in the news today that Uber is pulling the self-driving cars from its program and the co-founder has reportedly left the company. I don't know why Uber decided to test out self-driving cars. Seems to have been an awful risky decision.

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ms.akkineni
ms.akkineni
3/28/2018 8:54:57 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G is still in the future
@srufolo1:

Yes, I saw the news today. Uber stopped their plans to continue testing and their cofounder is leaving. I am not sure what comes next from Uber on this. We just need to wait and see.

But at the same time, someone or the other has to keep moving the initiative. These initial hiccups are unavoidable, but must take all measures in terms of impcting life.

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elizabethv
elizabethv
3/29/2018 4:53:38 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G is still in the future
@ms. akkineni - I just saw that Uber is paying out a settlement to the victims family. I think in general the idea of settlements is to not admit guilt, but I'm not sure what the point of paying out a settlement is, if you're not guilty? I personally hope all driverless cars are being pulled for the time being, not just Uber's. Though I just Waymo's technology is significantly better. All I know is I didn't trust driverless cars before this. I REALLY don't trust them now. 

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ms.akkineni
ms.akkineni
4/9/2018 1:34:59 PM
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Platinum
Re: 5G is still in the future
@Elizabeth: I don't blame you. I am sure not just you many others would feel the same. Definitely that model needs to become more stable for consumers to gain confidence and start trusting. Hopefully it won't be too long to get there.

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afwriter
afwriter
3/21/2018 12:17:47 AM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: 5G is still in the future
The first step to flying cars is finally being taken.

https://www.autoblog.com/2017/10/15/dubai-police-scorpion-hoverbike-video/

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JohnBarnes
JohnBarnes
3/21/2018 3:02:04 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: 5G is still in the future
Shaunn,

I've seen a probably-unsourced factoid that of the first 100 operating steamboats ever built, 97 blew up and 3 sank.  (One of those numbers that should be true even if it's an utter fib).  

"A social growth cannot find out the use of steam engines, until comes steam-engine-time. " — Charles Fort.

When there's enough motivation behind a social change, one way or another, the enabling technologies will be wrapped up in whatever legal arrangements are necessary to make them "affordable."  Exposing a bare coal face to poison a whole river would have gotten you flogged and forced to make restitution in most of Europe in the Middle Ages; since about 1700 it has been standard business practice, the efforts of the last 50 years to reverse that notwithstanding. Renaissance and later light laws would never have allowed skyscrapers.  But when the world (or its owners) decided they needed coal and skyscrapers, somehow or other the "consequences of those human choices" miraculously became "externalities about which nothing can be done."

There are two ways to fix the problem of AI-controlled vehicles being unsafe: your reasonable idea: make them safe according to present standards, which means creating human accountability for their behavior --

or the way it will actually be done: redefining safe.  

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mpouraryan
mpouraryan
3/22/2018 3:24:13 AM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: 5G is still in the future
Remember there was a "human" in the Arizona Car and yet someone died.

Your implicit message that we have to accept it is right on--but the question is at what cost?

 

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Joe Stanganelli
Joe Stanganelli
3/23/2018 3:04:04 PM
User Rank
Author
Re: 5G is still in the future
@John: Put another way, there are much thinner profit margins in the human-accountability business. ;)

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