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clrmoney
clrmoney
11/3/2017 10:47:59 AM
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Piracy is Killing
I think that they should have something to block people from doing piracy because it hurts business. Because Sandvine is losing billions of dollars they all get advanced security for this.

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batye
batye
11/3/2017 12:04:57 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
@clrmoney the laws do exist against piracy but not all countries use them... plus it also depends on the country legal system... as people get away with slap on the wrist in Canada for example... 

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JohnBarnes
JohnBarnes
11/3/2017 2:42:11 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
batye,

I don't see how a legal solution would work anyway, because fundamentally people don't tolerate harsh laws against things that they don't think are wrong. That's what doomed Prohibition and the sodomy laws in the United States, anti-contraception laws in Ireland, stage and film censorship in the UK, etc. Furthermore it isn't practical to jail or fine really large numbers of people, again, especially not if they think the law is silly.

And most people think most forms of IP law are silly (possibly because so much of IP law is silly). It doesn't really matter how much public education is put into it, people see no particular harm in a day care center decorated with unlicensed paintings of Disney characters, a music enthusiast putting up a thousand protected videos on YouTube or other services, or people writing and circulating their own stories about Batman or Buffy the Vampire Slayer. They aren't going to see, at the most fundamental level, why they should be punished for just getting all the lacrosse and squash they want for $10 per month.

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vnewman
vnewman
11/5/2017 11:10:18 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
@JohnBarnes. I also see this as a bit of human nature to ďbeat the system.Ē Itís a very passive kind of crime so all the more difficult to polic (as opposed to, say, shoplifting merchandise out of a store).

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batye
batye
11/6/2017 2:24:43 AM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
@vnewman yes you are right as in some cases people did not see it as piracy - even if it clear piracy... 

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Ariella
Ariella
11/6/2017 8:10:02 AM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
@vnewman An interesting point of contrast. An individual shoplifter who takes something small causes less loss overall than a pirate. But the individual who just watches a pirated movie probably does not feel like someone stealing a DVD from a store.

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vnewman
vnewman
11/6/2017 9:14:53 AM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
@Ariella. Yes! Thatís exactly the point I hoped to convey. At the end of the day itís still stealing but people have a remarkable capacity to rationalize their behavior to make it acceptable. Itís a faceless kind of crime. That makes it all the easier.

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Ariella
Ariella
11/6/2017 8:10:04 AM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
@vnewman An interesting point of contrast. An individual shoplifter who takes something small causes less loss overall than a pirate. But the individual who just watches a pirated movie probably does not feel like someone stealing a DVD from a store.

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JohnBarnes
JohnBarnes
11/6/2017 2:24:54 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
VNewman, batye, Ariella,

Ariella can probably back me up with many more examples, but teaching humanities classes I was always surprised, over and over again,  to discover a sizable minority of students (college students, mind you, so in the US, somewhere in the upper half of students academically) who seemed to be unable to grasp the idea that a text, video, piece of music, etc. are something made rather than something that is just somehow there. In public speaking classes, whenever IP has been a current enough issue (copy protection for music, jailbreaking free software downloads, using art in memes without permission) it was equally clear that many students really regard the fans as the "owners" of the music ("those guys in the band just play the songs, we're the ones that make them hits") and that rules about plagiarism were regarded as an odd nuisance to work around because, as one student said, "I'm just taking their facts and their words, if their facts are true, why should they get credit for it?"

So to be blunt, I don't think there's any hope at all of persuading people that they are stealing when they are  using something that they don't regard as property and leaving it right where it is for everyone else to use anyway.

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Ariella
Ariella
11/6/2017 2:31:46 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
@JohnBarnes what students don't realize at times is that if the instructors have seen their writing and are actually paying attention (as I was) they will notice if something handed it has a distinctly different style. In case, a student told me she just copied straight out of a book. Another got his girlfriend to write for him. While the latter may not have been a legal infringement -- as he clearly got her cooperation -- it still wasn't considered acceptable. Unfortunatley, though, the impression I get from my own kids' college experience is that today standards are far more lax. Anyone who does just about anything will get a top level grade for writing.

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JohnBarnes
JohnBarnes
11/6/2017 3:04:29 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
Ariella,
Yeah, and when i was last teaching, in 2015, it was quite clear that the "text is just there" attitude was gaining ground; many students really did not see why they had to hand in pages written by them; you were supposed to get your A for turning in a paper, which they did. Besides, you went to all the effort of buying it or finding it online!


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Ariella
Ariella
11/6/2017 3:13:35 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
@JohnBarnes well, if they really went to the trouble of buying it ... Were any of them smart enough to cheat intelligently? In other words did a student who was doing C level work realize that it would be more credible to hand in a B paper than an A one? From what I understnad the sites that make papers to order take that into account.

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JohnBarnes
JohnBarnes
11/7/2017 2:38:24 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
Ariella,

I think you're on to something there.

I suppose I'm not as worried about the frequency and prevalence of academic cheating -- America is a nation of crooks, thugs, con men, and fraudsters and always has been, despite all the histories written to make our ancestors out to be something other than the "wretched refuse" (to quote Emma Lazarus) who were "thrown out of every decent country in the world" (to quote Bill Murray). I'm much more worried about the idea that getting a degree consists of trading typed-on pieces of paper for grade points and that where or how you get the paper shouldn't matter. The old-fashioned cheater was well aware that there were such things as skills and knowledge, which could be faked in order to get stuff (and sometimes faked rather cleverly); the new breed often seems to be unaware that there is any such thing as doing the job -- you just present the credential and collect your place in the world.  So there's no really any room for being smart, any more than there is room for being smart in playing the lottery.

Turning back to piracy and IP, I think that may be why it's very difficult to get people to see IP as any kind of property.  They tend to think of watching/listening as a creative act, somehow; no awareness that "you didn't build that" (to quote a president who endured a lot of hassle for saying that, especially because it was true).

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Ariella
Ariella
11/7/2017 2:48:21 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
@JohnBarnes But if you agree that "you didn't built that" applies to the person who designed the object or produced the show or wrote the paper, then really shouldn't there not be any restriction on intellectual property? I know the theory of everyone influences everyone else and all writing is rooted in and influenced by other writing even if one is trying to write against that influence. However, if you fully swallow this idea of everything being a product of collaboration and take it to its logical conclusion, then there really shouldn't be any copyright at all. There are people who believe that. 

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JohnBarnes
JohnBarnes
11/7/2017 3:02:13 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
Ariella, 

Yep, there are people who believe that ... but I think I worry more about the people who didn't build that and believe that they did! The existence of thieves at least affirms the idea of property (you couldn't steal if nothing belonged to anyone); the idea of just consuming, that everything is just kind of there for everyone, is, I think, ultimately more destructive.

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Ariella
Ariella
11/7/2017 2:53:57 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
@JohnBarnes now on plagiarism outside the classroom, I have seen my own work plagiarized. The writer did paraphrase everything, but he didn't even bother to rearrange the order of presentation, keeping my three examples and droppign the citations I had put in for the sources I had used. That was extremely brazen, and I let the editor of the publication I had written this for know. Instead of crediting me for the find, though, he put out some general email to all the writers about being careful about using sources. The guy who ripped off my piece wasn't doing research; he was doing what many students do and often get away with for lazy checks that rely on identical phrasing rather than looking at the concepts.

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/8/2017 2:46:12 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
While I understand that plagiarism can be hurtful, the harm can be difficult to quantify. If someone else profits off my ideas/work, I'm rightfully angry or disappointed that *I* didn't get a slice of the profits. But am I entitled to them? Did it harm my reputation? I don't think it's quite an easy answer, even if you can find the "criminal" behind the IP heist.

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Ariella
Ariella
11/8/2017 2:48:56 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
@mhhf1ve well, as it's not tangible it becomes a bit more difficult to quantify. Say you're a photographer who sells your images and you find that somoene takes the shot you took and then sells it, you may put that price tag on it. But even if they didn't sell it but just took it without your permission, you may consider that a form of theft. This is why many photographers who want to show off their work online now put in watermarks.

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/8/2017 3:05:16 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
> "This is why many photographers who want to show off their work online now put in watermarks."

True, but at some point, watermarks will have to evolve -- because there are algorithms that can remove them now. There have been blockchain-based methods that attempt to eliminate counterfeit works by registering them in a distributed public ledger.... 

https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/18/16162108/google-research-algorithm-watermark-removal-photo-protection

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Ariella
Ariella
11/8/2017 3:44:32 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
@mhhf1ve and that would extend even to posted images? I thought that was more of a thing to distinguish genuine products from their countefeits, as in components of electronics.

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/8/2017 4:45:21 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
I've seen proposals for blockchain tech to register digital files like songs or images. So I don't see any reason why not, but then again, I haven't seen widespread adoption either. But widespread adoption might be hindered by non-tech savvy artists? Perhaps some stock photo databases could offer it someday?

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mpouraryan
mpouraryan
11/8/2017 10:38:58 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
The messages, as I caught up on the discourse with all, was simply this--the need to be fair to content providers is vital--even to the folks at RT because as I understand it, over 1000 articles were taken from it and posted by InfoWars.    

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/8/2017 2:42:01 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
> "Turning back to piracy and IP, I think that may be why it's very difficult to get people to see IP as any kind of property." 

The other half of the problem may also be that copyright laws have trended toward "breaking the deal" that works are supposed to be protected *for a limited time* -- as copyrights now extend far beyond the deaths of the authors/composers/etc. I think if IP laws were a bit more reasonable, perhaps more people might be inclined to observe them to the letter. When laws grow absurd, no one follows the law.

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JohnBarnes
JohnBarnes
11/8/2017 10:23:32 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
mhhf1ve,

Yes, absolutely. I think the Mickey Mouse Rule (copyright law will always change to keep Mickey Mouse or any significant Disney IP from ever going public domain) has done immense damage to any reasonable idea of IP.

It would really not be difficult to figure out a fairer, more effective way to assess how long copyright, patent, and trademark terms ought to be; costs, benefits, probabilities, expected times -- banks and venture capitalists assess that kind of problem all the time for estimating probable ROI, and though they make mistakes, they are able to capture a large part of the value and stay in business.  This would of course mean re-visioning IP from the starting point, but I suspect the social value of an IP system that made sense (and was mostly complied with because it did) would more than pay for the hard thinking and difficult bargaining it would take.

 

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/8/2017 11:47:03 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
Re-hauling the IP legal system isn't going to happen anytime soon -- if ever. Lawmakers have no interest in making it less favorable to powerful media giants. And consumers have little voice in standing against the media conglomerates that push for ever longer copyrights. The result seems to arc toward a worldwide IP system that is "harmonized" with the Mickey Mouse interests.

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JohnBarnes
JohnBarnes
11/9/2017 10:24:46 AM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
mhhf1ve,

The great advantage of oligarchic systems is that they get stupid -- and more and more reliant on repression -- over time, so there are periodic crises. Admittedly, we aren't going to fix IP tomorrow, or even next year. But sooner or later some major nation or industry is going to find itself boxed and blocked so extensively that it will find it has to cross that line and break the rules openly and publicly. And when it does happen, the IP laws will once again be revealed as the weak reed they are (and always have been; most of the world's patent law didn't matter a whit to the old Soviet Union, and foreign copyright means essentially nothing in Russia and China today). Authority always stands on a slippery rug.

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/9/2017 11:51:57 AM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
I predict that existing IP laws will remain on the books forever, but that at some point, they just won't be enforced. Tech companies will move on and simply come up with open source solutions that need no IP protection-- or AI will be so opaque that it *can't* be patented in a meaningful way. It won't happen anytime soon, but we're headed for absolute encryption (via quantum computing or otherwise) and ways to keep proprietary software or any media digitally locked -- but we simply won't have much use for keeping most media locked or encrypted. An analog loophole will always exist, but private two-party communications will preserve some privacy at least.

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Ariella
Ariella
11/9/2017 4:39:26 PM
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Re: Piracy and the printing press
Smithsonian ran this article: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-ripped-off-sequel-don-quixote-predicted-piracy-digital-age-180967048/?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=socialmedia

It includes these observations: 

So popular was the novel that an anonymous writer decided to write a sequel. Cervantes, who felt that he owned the famous character he had created, was dismayed. He depended on the novel to solve his perpetual financial troubles (he had been accused of defrauding the state while working as a tax collector raising funds for the Spanish Armada, and put in prison). With few legal means at his disposal, Cervantes realized that he had to fight fire with fire and write his own sequel. In it, he made Don Quixote defeat an imposter drawn from the unauthorized rival version—Quixote's false double—showing who was really in charge of the story.The title page of the first edition of Don QuixoteThe title page of the first edition of Don Quixote (Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons)

The experience taught Cervantes a lesson: Paper and print could help him find new readers both at home and abroad, but these same technologies made it easier for others to sell pirated editions. (Cervantes might not have called them pirates, because he knew about real ones: He had been captured by North African pirates after participating in the historic battle of Lepanto and spent four years in captivity in Algiers, waiting for his family to come up with the ransom.)

Eventually, Cervantes came to realize that the biggest villain in the story wasn't copycats or pirates; it was printers, who didn't care about originality, ownership, or artistic integrity—only sales.





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batye
batye
11/9/2017 8:01:16 PM
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Re: Piracy and the printing press
@Ariella interesting reading to know as I never know this fact - thanks for sharing... 

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/11/2017 12:01:35 AM
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Re: Piracy and the printing press
That's a somewhat strange thing for the Smithsonian to publish? I wonder what other authors would think nowadays. The Grimm fairy tales have been plundered by Disney. Aesop's fables have been re-vamped in countless ways. I wonder what would happen if an author today purposely put a work into the Public Domain? There are so few examples of content that isn't controlled by copyright.

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Ariella
Ariella
11/11/2017 6:16:00 PM
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Re: Piracy and the printing press
<That's a somewhat strange thing for the Smithsonian to publish? I wonder what other authors would think nowadays. The Grimm fairy tales have been plundered by Disney. Aesop's fables have been re-vamped in countless ways. I wonder what would happen if an author today purposely put a work into the Public Domain? There are so few examples of content that isn't controlled by copyright. >

@mhhf1ve ah, now you're getting into art that is considered in the public domain. Does anyone own the rights to Grimm's fairy tales? No, though a particular edition with a specific translation could be still under copyright if it was set up or renewed within the allotted time frame for the particular country in question. Life +70 years seems to be the most popular, but here are some variations according to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries%27_copyright_lengths

However, some very common things like the song "Happy Birthday" were  subject to a major dispute over copyright that was only settled relatively recently to the tune of $14 million. See https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/10/business/media/details-of-happy-birthday-copyright-settlement-revealed.html

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/12/2017 11:30:41 AM
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Re: Piracy and the printing press
Ariella, Copyright laws varying significantly from country to country. One of the most significant differences in my opinion is the "sweat of the brow" rule that some countries allow and some don't. For example, in the US, you can't copyright a phone book that you compiled simply because you've done the work (aka "sweat of the brow") to collect names matched with numbers. But in some countries, you can copyright such a compilation even though there's no creativeness behind a phone book.

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batye
batye
11/12/2017 6:49:53 PM
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Re: Piracy and the printing press
@mhhf1ve yes, you are right in some countries it like free for all... on top of my head it would be China and Russia... 

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faryl
faryl
11/9/2017 5:33:52 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
I'm torn on post-humous IP/copyright. On one hand, I appreciate the benefit of things becoming part of the public domain. But I also think that it's fair for someone to want their family/descendents/benificiaries to benefit from their legacy & make sure that it's not used in ways that might damage or take away from its reputation. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone's estate to continue controlling how their likeness is used or be compensated for something that is profiting from their body of work.

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/10/2017 11:50:52 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
> "I don't think it's unreasonable for someone's estate to continue controlling how their likeness is used or be compensated...."

I'm not so sympathetic to dead people or their families, I guess. Not too many people inherit an ongoing fortune, so why should some be protected by law if the economic benefits could be greater with more public domain wealth? We already have enough concentrated wealth. Do we need to concentrate it even more? I'm also skeptical that IP laws protect families as much as giant corporations that have bought up IP over years. Perhaps I would be more sympathetic if IP could not be transferred to corporate entities.

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Ariella
Ariella
11/11/2017 6:06:03 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
@mhhf1ve Celbrity images are considered part of the estate. This came up a few years ago when Audrey Hepburn was CGIed into a commercial as discussed here: https://reelrundown.com/celebrities/Audrey-Hepburn-Resurrected-For-A-New-TV-Commercial-Is-This-A-Good-Thing

The soon-to-be-released Star Wars movie will feature the late Carrie Fisher, though that was filmed directly by her. But the movie before that, which did featured a CGI version of her younger self also had other actors now deceased CGIed into it. I"d imagine they had to get permission from the estate.

 

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/12/2017 11:35:50 AM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
Ariella, there's actually a company that collects the celebrity rights of dead celebrities. I'll have to look it up because I forget its name, but it owns Elvis rights and several famous baseball players. It's an industry. But it probably shouldn't be. Copyrights will get trickier when completely artificial actors can be created-- and it's already happening in Japan where fake singers are being added to pop bands.

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batye
batye
11/12/2017 6:43:34 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
@mhhf1ve I heard the same about Japan when fake singers and celebraties get added to the to pop bands to promote them but only in Japan... but yes it create trademark infridgment... 

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JohnBarnes
JohnBarnes
11/11/2017 10:38:06 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
faryl, mhhf1ve, rest'o'ya,

As long as we're wading into the philosophic waters we might as well go deep enough to drown ... many communication theorists and media critics have pointed out that if a work has a political and social content, then IP rules intended to protect commercial interest can easily be bent to preventing dissent or criticism.  The Carl Barks Donald Duck comics are straight-up lectures in monetarist and supply-side economics (Milton Friedman used to praise them pretty highly), but they're also vastly entertaining stories (many are still in print though originally published fifty years ago).  As Ariel Dorfman pointed out in How To Read Donald Duck, which I think might be the single best combination of a serious important book with a really silly title ever, the result is that one side of the argument gets all the appeal -- a much-loved familiar character having family-friendly fun adventures -- and the other side specifically can't answer in the same form.  Consider also the tangled history of Gone with the Wind versus The Wind Done Gone.

Now, entirely aside from IP guaranteeing that one side will have all the popular appeal and the other will be easily portrayed as cranky spoilsports, consider that in both cases IP lawsuits were used quite deliberately to try to shut down the other side. Disney's pro-imperialism, or Margaret Mitchell's defense of treasonous slaveholders, not only got the bigger and nicer soapbox -- the IP laws could easily be bent to make any criticism effectively a crime.

IP purely for profit turns instantly to IP for political repression; for a third example, see the Disney v. Air Pirates case.

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/12/2017 11:22:28 AM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
Excellent examples. There are plenty of cases where IP law has been twisted to suppress expression for a variety of reasons -- including political dissent. Nearly every year, some political candidate uses a song as a campaign theme without getting any kind of permission from the singer if songwriter.... one might think a politician should know better than to use a song written or sung by an artist who doesn't share the same political views. This shouldn't be a legal battle but a common sense PR move.

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Ariella
Ariella
11/12/2017 11:47:23 AM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
< This shouldn't be a legal battle but a common sense PR move. >

@mhhf1ve that reminds me of the incident with Godiblox usiing the Beastie Boys songs. See http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/beastie-boys-settle-lawsuit-over-girls-toy-commercial-20140318

GoldieBlox specializes in engineering and construction toys for girls, and in the ad for the "Princess Machine," three young girls built a Rube Goldberg machine and sang the Beastie Boys track with altered lyrics to reflect the company's mission ("Girls to build a spaceship / Girls to code the new app / Girls to grow up knowing / That they can engineer that").

Garnering millions of views, the Beastie Boys responded to the company claiming copyright infringement, causing GoldieBlox to file an official lawsuit that argued the ad was a parody and therefore protected under fair use. The suit focused specifically on the sexist nature of the original song's lyrics ("Girls to do the dishes / Girls to clean up my room / Girls to do the laundry / Girls and in the bathroom"), saying the company was trying to "make fun of the Beastie Boys song" and "break down gender stereotypes and to encourage young girls to engage in activities that challenge their intellect, particularly in the fields of science, technology, engineering and math."

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/12/2017 2:32:54 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
I remember that lawsuit. IIRC, they settled and didn't use the song. But that situation was not necessarily about profit motives or free speech as much as the wishes of one of the deceased Bestie Boys. Although I'm not sure how they got their song in a Star Trek movie?

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Ariella
Ariella
11/12/2017 4:59:58 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
@mhhf1ve I think the Beastie Boys didn't come off well in that suit. As for the Star Trek usage it is possible that they obtained permission, paid a fee, or that it was not considered commercial because they were not directly promoting a product as in the case of the toy's video. 

 

Copyright get even more complicated, though, when it comes to art in which one person can own the actual art work while another owns the rights to the image. That came up in the question of Picassos appearing in Titanic. See http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/25/arts/design/artists-rights-society-vaga-and-intellectual-property.html

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batye
batye
11/12/2017 6:48:46 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
@Ariella thanks for a link interesting reading... in Canada in my youth days when I work security on movies set and seen few things :)  I do know for the fact two movies did not get off the ground due to the copywrires/trade mark ownershp problems... 

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/16/2017 2:01:11 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
I wonder how Adam Yauch's will goes along with Star Trek's licensing. I've seen some Star Trek ads that feature a Beastie Boy's song -- and that's advertising. So... 

http://archive.is/2016....http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/adam-yauchs-will-prohibits-use-of-his-music-in-ads-20120809 

Your NYT link to the copyright of Picasso's works is interesting. It's a bit sad that art has to be tied up in legal battles for the foreseeable future.

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Ariella
Ariella
11/16/2017 2:51:02 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
@mhhf1ve yes, but really fascinating that you can own the art itself and still now own the rights to its image.

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/16/2017 3:50:46 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
Intellectual Property rights are indeed a strange beast. I vaguely remember a museum that wanted to control what visitors could do with the photos they took of exhibits.

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Ariella
Ariella
11/16/2017 4:31:34 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
@mhhf1ve A lot of museums don't allow photography at all (regardless of flash)  -- as in the case of the Frick Collection. Others restrict it to certain special exhibits, as in the case of the New York Historical Society. The MoMA, though, genreally allows photos and even equipped the device it lends out to visitors to send pictures that can be emailed.

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/17/2017 12:18:54 PM
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Re: Piracy is Killing
Copyright and IP laws can create some strange incentives that make sharing.. difficult if not illegal. One might think that without copyright ownership, Sandvine wouldn't have capacity problems at all -- because copies of popular content wouldn't be stored multiple times or transmitted as haphazardly. Or if copyright licensing were a bit less opaque with fewer barriers, maybe piracy would go away almost entirely. 

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elizabethv
elizabethv
11/22/2017 6:20:47 AM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Piracy is Killing
@mhhf1ve - Not to mention a good number of those copies don't even work the way they are supposed to anyway. Not to meniton that they are generally filled with malware. Though according to the video I wil post a link to below, most art is just a copy anyway.  

 

https://youtu.be/SiEXgpp37No

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batye
batye
11/12/2017 6:46:13 PM
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Platinum
Re: Piracy is Killing
@Ariella yes you are right as most of the time it could be a hidden PR move - same way as forgoten celebraties leak compromising photos themself with idea to boost they return to fame... Human nature is dark this days- sad reality... 

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freehe
freehe
11/23/2017 8:50:18 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Piracy is Killing
@mhhf1ve, Valid points. Companies should not be able to buy IPs. This encourages a monopoly in the industry. But then again we live in a capitalistic society so greed fuels everything that is done.

I am glad IP laws exist. They provide a lot of benefits for individuals, small business owners and families. Families can make educated decisions about safety or the products they purchase and make encorage piracy rights to ensure authentic high quality products are created, and helps provide confidence in the products and services consumers purchase.

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JohnBarnes
JohnBarnes
11/11/2017 10:42:42 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Piracy is Killing
faryl,

I think the sensible test is mostly public utility (I guess I'm with mhhf1ve here).  IP should remain property only long enough to incentivize creators to create it, and I'd add that further there should be some restrictions on denial of licenses (aka patent trolling) and the equivalent of SLAPPback suits when IP is being used for extortion or repeated non-winning cases (notoriously, Arthur Conan Doyle's family sued over and over and over again, losing every time it went to court, for decades after Sherlock Holmes was public domain; but they kept suing because they could afford to and it intimidated everyone else).

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/12/2017 11:15:25 AM
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Platinum
Re: Piracy is Killing
Sensible tests may be difficult to come by, but I like your suggestion of a SLAPP back like law for IP to prevent (expired) copyright holders from intimidating lawful use of works. And perhaps there should be more stringent ownership rules so that the case of the Happy Birthday song can't happen again.

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batye
batye
11/6/2017 5:33:10 AM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Piracy is Killing
@JohnBarnes yes you are right... but to each hs own I do try my best to follow rules/law of the land I live in... but it like saying in Rome do as Romans do :) 

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faryl
faryl
11/9/2017 5:05:07 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Piracy is Killing
At the same time, that doesn't stop governments from creating laws to criminalize people/activities that they see as threatening to the status quo (e.g., CFAA, marijuana possession). Side note regarding the nursery school story: The visitation room at the Victorville Federal Penitentiary has a painted mural of Shrek and some other cartoon characters on one of the walls. Made me wonder if anyone got permission, or if the US BOP just figures they won't get reported/are above the law.

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dmendyk
dmendyk
11/3/2017 11:39:35 AM
User Rank
Platinum
Watching the defectives
It sounds like closer monitoring of user bandwidth activity might help operators figure out where the pirates be.

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Ariella
Ariella
11/3/2017 12:18:18 PM
User Rank
Author
Re: Watching the defectives
Aren't people who subscribe to illegal sites also considered to be breaking the law? If they do so with credit cards -- as is nearly always the case for online services -- they are easily traceable. There must not be much of a crackdown for so many people to leave such a clear trail.

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dmendyk
dmendyk
11/3/2017 1:36:36 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Watching the defectives
Agree -- when a problem is serious enough, the entity with the problem finds a solution (or at least tries to find one). Theft of service has been an issue for decades. Mostly, the response has been best-effort (or maybe that's least-effort) solutions.

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JohnBarnes
JohnBarnes
11/3/2017 2:25:01 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Watching the defectives
Ariella,

Good luck on that one .... most of the payments online for illegal goods and services (gambling, drugs, prostitution, weapons, false certificates and licenses) are paid for via legal, aboveground credit or debit accounts, usually with no more cutout than someone buying a debit/gift card as simple anonymizer. So, for that matter, are huge amounts of live-in-person goods and services that are illegal in the jurisdiction where they're being sold.  Banks, service providers, and card companies are not going to give up all that income stream, and given their actual power and influence, no one is going to try to make them.

A pervasive very small scale purely property crime is not going to tip the balance toward piercing the network and identifying and prosecuting cardholders. 

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Ariella
Ariella
11/3/2017 2:37:33 PM
User Rank
Author
Re: Watching the defectives
@JohnBarnes a quick search shows that some countries are trying to ban the sites altogether, as here: https://torrentfreak.com/the-pirate-bay-and-other-pirate-sites-will-be-blocked-in-australia-161215/

But there are workarounds for things like that for people who know how to set up access from an IP address located outside their country. 

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JohnBarnes
JohnBarnes
11/3/2017 3:00:15 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Watching the defectives
Ariella, "The internet perceives censorship as damage, and wires around it" -- truism since before I was on the net (which was about 1987).  

The government of China -- with officially nearly unlimited power and a geographic isolation nearly as good as Australia's -- can't completely keep the unfettered web out.  Good luck to the Aussies, I guess ... maybe they can call it Project Canute.

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batye
batye
11/5/2017 7:58:01 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Watching the defectives
@Ariella yes it very easy to do... but from what I read PC could end up highjacked for Bitcoin maining while downloading it using IP changer... 

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Ariella
Ariella
11/5/2017 9:50:17 PM
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Author
Re: Watching the defectives
@batye really? Back when I was writing about bitcoin for CoinDesk, I learned that huge amounts of computing power are needed for mining bitcoin. That's why people formed teams to achieve the amount needed. You'd have to have quite a system going to hijack multiple PCs and direct them for mining. See https://www.bitcoinmining.com/getting-started/

To begin mining bitcoins, you'll need to acquire bitcoin mining hardware. In the early days of bitcoin, it was possible to mine with your computer CPU or high speed video processor card. Today that's no longer possible. Custom Bitcoin ASIC chips offer performance up to 100x the capability of older systems have come to dominate the Bitcoin mining industry.

Bitcoin mining with anything less will consume more in electricity than you are likely to earn. It's essential to mine bitcoins with the best bitcoin mining hardware built specifically for that purpose.

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batye
batye
11/5/2017 10:31:28 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Watching the defectives
@Ariella Yes as while downloading program and use IP change the bad guys could highjack part of your pc to use for Bitcoin mining here is part of the info - https://qz.com/1085171/how-to-tell-if-your-computer-is-secretly-mining-cryptocurrency-and-what-to-do-about-it/ but I think is more wide spread problem -what we know... as for regular user it unknown - while person just wanna watch movie via ising change IP program... 

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afwriter
afwriter
11/6/2017 10:38:04 AM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Watching the defectives
I could be wrong but I think as long as people are streaming the content and not actually downloading it to own, they are not breaking any laws. It is the servers/sites that hold the illegally streamed content that are breaking all the laws. 

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/8/2017 2:51:33 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Watching the defectives
> "Aren't people who subscribe to illegal sites also considered to be breaking the law? If they do so with credit cards -- as is nearly always the case for online services -- they are easily traceable."

I haven't personally subscribed to any illegal sites, but I know that if these users are paranoid enough, there are prepaid cards that act as credit cards that can be essentially untraceable. So it's not that easy to "track down" some users. And if anyone really wanted to track them down -- there's also IP addresses (as long as uses don't use certain VPNs...).

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Ariella
Ariella
11/8/2017 2:54:04 PM
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Author
Re: Watching the defectives
@mhhf1ve I suppose that wold make it more difficult to trace. Bitcoin -- contrary to what some people think -- does leave a trail and so would not guarantee anonymity.

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/8/2017 3:02:11 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Watching the defectives
Bitcoin doesn't guarantee anonymity at all, but as I understand it, other cryptocurrencies do by design. However, I'm not convinced that such cryptocurrencies will get stable use -- unless more governments start to intensely regulate or track cryptocurrencies. I think Ether and other cryptocurrencies may have to build on being "legitimate" currencies -- and anonymity isn't really a selling feature for that kind of branding.

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afwriter
afwriter
11/7/2017 1:01:19 PM
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Platinum
Re: Watching the defectives
The only problems there though are 1. I'm not sure what the legality is of them using your data to suspect you of a crime and 2. There are some legal sites like YouTube and Crackle that will continuously play if you leave them on.

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batye
batye
11/7/2017 2:21:28 PM
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Platinum
Re: Watching the defectives
@afwriter good point as with legality of it you never know... it like dead chicken will bite... 

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Michelle
Michelle
11/5/2017 4:49:02 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Support & service
It sounds like the pirate boxes could use an upgrade to function better for customers. I wonder if they'll consider it or just keep with the current model. It could make a great sitcom... bad guys make pirate boxes, then have to provide good customer service to keep customers from leaving.

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batye
batye
11/5/2017 7:55:15 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Support & service
@Michelle interesting observation, but they do as they hire good tech minds on the cheap and use them to provide tech support to this pirated boxes... and they do get away with it... 

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Michelle
Michelle
11/7/2017 1:50:46 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Support & service
That's the big question - how long will it all last? Do they get any additional value beyone the one-time purchase?

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afwriter
afwriter
11/6/2017 10:39:32 AM
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Platinum
Re: Support & service
I guess it is an exercise in "you get what you pay for."

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Michelle
Michelle
11/7/2017 7:55:03 PM
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Platinum
Re: Support & service
I see what you did there! 

 

You'd be right. You're paying for access you're not allowed to have, not service and support you're not entitled to ;)

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afwriter
afwriter
11/6/2017 10:46:27 AM
User Rank
Platinum
Food for Thought
@Adi Fantastic (and funny) article as always. Thanks for the excellent food for thought. I wonder if phantom bandwidth usage would detour some would be pirates. I know that with my current internet service I have a data cap which I feel a lot of ISPs are moving toward. Constant streaming may end up costing someone with a data cap more than just having a Netflix or Hulu subscription

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Adi
Adi
11/6/2017 11:14:53 AM
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Author
Re: Food for Thought
Thanks, afwriter. I think the problem is that not all consumers will understand that's what is happening. They could just blame the ISP or even some other content provider rather than the pirated service.

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/8/2017 2:48:36 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Ghosts in the machine
> ""phantom bandwidth" -- bandwidth dedicated to services that continue streaming, even though no one is watching."

I wonder how many video ads are counted in this "phantom bandwidth" issue. I know Hulu instituted a timeout if you didn't hit a button after watching several shows in a row -- usually a button that made sure you were watching an ad. I'm not sure if Netflix does this? 

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afwriter
afwriter
11/9/2017 11:03:29 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Ghosts in the machine
Netflix does stop playing and ask you if you are still there. I'm not sure if they gage it by time or episode. 

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
11/10/2017 8:01:02 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Ghosts in the machine
I assume Netflix asks if you're still there to make sure it's not paying for licensing that isn't actually being used. Advertisers never really know how many viewers are being converted-- no matter how good the analytics get. But licensing probably can get a bit more accurate since one view can be accounted for and charged.

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afwriter
afwriter
11/10/2017 10:23:00 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Ghosts in the machine
That's a great point. I know its a problem in our house because my kids start watching something then go to play and leave their show running. I have been guilty of binge-watching a few shows too where they ask if you are still there, it kind of makes you feel bad about yourself when you realize you have been watching for so long that they think you left.

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freehe
freehe
11/23/2017 7:36:53 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Piracy is Killing Capacity
Wow, I did not know there were pirated set-top boxes but am not surprised. It is amazing that they consume more than a terabyte of network bandwidth.

Pirated devices that continue to use bandwidth when viewers are not watching is bad for business. This slows down bandwidth for paid subscribers. Not sure when the piracy will be addressed but I understand why pirated set-top boxes exist. Pricing of services is too expensive.

 

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freehe
freehe
11/23/2017 8:40:54 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Piracy
"According to the company's 2017 Global Internet Phenomena report, released earlier this week, illegal streaming services are earning $840 million from their subscribers. These services, typically priced at $10 per month, have an estimated 6.5% of north American households as subscribers. Sandvine estimates that costs the video industry $4.2 billion in lost revenue.

These statistics prove that consumers are tired of paying high prices for set-top boxes and service. This should be a wakeup call to cable companies to lower their prices and provide better service.

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elizabethv
elizabethv
11/24/2017 9:15:40 AM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Piracy
In my opinion, it's crazy that people even pay for pirated services. Though you would think companies would get the hint that the majority of us are barely getting by on our current incomes with the high price of everything, and adjust accordingly. But they won't They sit and hope that we all fold and rack up an absurd credit card debt instead. What would be intersteing is if one of these pirated sites was ever made an example of like Napster was back in the day. I doubt it. But it would be interesting. 

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dlr5288
dlr5288
11/30/2017 3:35:02 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Piracy
Couldnít agree more! The prices having been getting higher and higher every month. You would think that companies would realize that theyíre losing people each year...itís something that I hope can slow down one day soon.

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batye
batye
12/13/2017 2:46:03 AM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Piracy
@dlr5288 I see the same trend but Co. this days living in the todays bottom line... keep forgeting people do not want to spend more... at the end customers walk away... 

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dlr5288
dlr5288
12/18/2017 6:30:38 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Piracy
And it becomes a lose/lose situation for everyone. There needs to be a balance between demand and customers needs.

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freehe
freehe
11/23/2017 8:43:23 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Lost Revenue
Blocking piracy does not solve the issue. Those estimates are forgetting the main issue, customers are unhappy with service and churn will continue to occur if they don't lower prices.

If piracy set-top boxes are banned customers will just find another outlet for entertainment.

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freehe
freehe
11/23/2017 8:53:28 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Bandwidth
"Sandvine also estimates that operators are losing out on network capacity due to piracy. This is because legitimate services such as Netflix build technology into their client apps to stop streaming after a set period if the viewer doesn't act (i.e., change channels, raise volume, pause live TV etc.). That's to stop streaming at times when no one is watching anymore but hasn't turned off the set-top box, or has walked away, or dozed off in front of the TV. It helps network operators avoid wasting bandwidth, but also helps streaming services manage their own transit and other content delivery costs."

Network capacity was already an issue before piracy increased and the black market generated pirated set-top boxes. It is even a bigger issue now. Pirated set-top boxes companies can't or don't want to manage network resources to reduce wasting bandwidth. There is a price to pay for everything that you want.

 

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